Author Topic: REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED  (Read 4636 times)

Cayman Jewel

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REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED
« on: January 07, 2014, 12:22:49 AM »
I am in the process of replacing my refrigeration system on our CSY 33 and would like all the suggestions everyone could provide.  I removed the old Crosby system and was able to sell that for about $850 to a guy who needed parts.  I was considering the new ENGLE drop in units. One for fridge and another for freezer.  Seems pretty self explanatory in the installation process.  Anyone have experience with these?

Soggy Paws

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REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2014, 01:01:14 PM »
Cayman,

Welcome to the forum and one of the most discussed topics.  Over the years there has been much written by owners regarding this important topic.  Make sure you go back and read whatever you can find on this and other forums.  Also have a close look at Nigel Calder's 3rd edition of his Mechanical and Electrical Manual for the far and away the best coverage of modern refrigeration systems and insulation options from the expert.  It is well worth the $40.

My thoughts have migrated from a holding plate system which we had on the boat for about 10 years to a modern Danfoss based evaporator plate system which we installed in 2011.  Since you had a holding plate system and now are looking to install a more modern system you probably are familiar with the many advantages.  Our current system, two Frigoboat keel cooler units, are described here:

http://www.svsoggypaws.com/frigoboat_installation.htm

I did a lot of research before I chose Frigoboat and I recommend you do the same before you choose your new system.  Good luck.

Dave
CSY 44 Walkthru #35, Soggy Paws
Soggy Paws the CSY has been SOLD
http://svsoggypaws.com/CSY/For_Sale.htm

Cayman Jewel

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REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 12:33:12 AM »
Thanks Dave for the advice. I greatly appreciate it.

Thane

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REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 09:27:31 AM »
Dave,

Why did you pick the studded cooler rather than the threaded?
Thane Gilliam
Heart of Gold
44 W/O

Soggy Paws

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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 01:22:18 PM »
Hi Thane,

Ours was part of an order of 5 units with Steve Silverman and that is what we ended up with, one of each.  I think that the threaded unit is a bit simpler if you have room to turn the big nut down tight, just like on a thru hull fitting.  If not use the stud unit which can be tightened with smaller hand wrenches.
Either one works fine and the strength and design of the unit is such that there is absolutely no danger of water intrusion.  

The heat exchange is very efficient in the water, much more so than the Isotherm unit that is enclosed in a thru hull.  The BD50 compressors we chose will handle up to a 15 cuft refrig or 5 cu ft freezer.  So we can run them at the slowest most efficient speed.  The keel cooler also works adequately but not as efficiently in air when you are hauled out.  A slow trickle of water over a rag and running the units at slow speed help dissipate the heat.

You might also be able to install the keel coolers in the big fresh water tanks on a Walk Over.  Steve Dashew did this on his new boat and he might be able to tell you more about it if you email him.  I'd be interested to hear what he says if you decide to explore this option.

Dave
CSY 44 Walkthru #35, Soggy Paws
Soggy Paws the CSY has been SOLD
http://svsoggypaws.com/CSY/For_Sale.htm

Peter Roach

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REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 06:05:20 PM »
I cool my refrigeration via the water tank. You do not really notice the increase in heat in the tank. Since the fiberglass wall of the tank is in direct contact with the water it acts as a great heat sync. The water temp between tanks is within 2 degrees F. The only downside is you need to keep a little water in the tank.
I tried having a bad day once but I did not like it

Soggy Paws

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 02:03:50 AM »
Peter,

What refrig system are you using?  Are you using keel coolers in your tank or drawing FW from them into a water cooled condenser?  And how much water do you need to keep in the tanks?

Dave
CSY 44 Walkthru #35, Soggy Paws
Soggy Paws the CSY has been SOLD
http://svsoggypaws.com/CSY/For_Sale.htm

Peter Roach

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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 10:19:25 AM »
My refrigeration is a Ez-Kold. I do not think they are in business any longer. I chose Ez-Kold because they offered a box style holding plate. The holding plate is on wrapped around three four sides and the top/bottom are stainless. Ez-Kold also offered a water/air unit. This keeps all of the food inside the box frozen solid! It can use either or both to cool the refrigerant. I like the holding plate because I can get it very cold when I am running the engine, generator, solar, etc. I have an override timer that I can set and it will keep the unit running even when the thermostat has reached it setting. I usually turn it on when I am an hour or two outside of a harbor and let the box get cold. There is nothing worse than dropping anchor after motoring all day only to hear the refrigerator go on. I also override the system to get it very cold later in the day so hopefully the unit does not kick on overnight when I don't have the solar. The timer is mounted by the companionway so I just turn the knob and forget it. The holding plate allows me to hold over a lot longer. I also left the old holding plate in the back of the box to give a little more mass to help the hold over time. It seems to work well for my style of cruising.

I know Dave and Sherry do a radically different kind of cruising so their systems are designed for their needs. My system takes about 6 - 8 amps per hour and runs for about 6-7 hours a day. I measured this with a blue seas panel and an hour meter on the refrigeration unit.

My system uses a water pump to pump the water from the fresh water tank through the unit and then back into the tank. This arrangement takes about another .5-1 amp per hour over a keel cooler. I have always wanted to install one of these in my tank but it is on the "to do" list. Remember my unit is both a water and air unit so it will run fine (but longer) when the boat is out of the water. Unfortunately Ez-Kold used some funny connectors for their refrigerant lines so I would have to modify a keel cooler to fit the system.

I believe that Ez-Kold is now out of business.
I tried having a bad day once but I did not like it

Soggy Paws

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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 04:58:52 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info on your system.  I've always wondered if using our fresh water tanks for heat exchange on a long term basis would work.  It appears from your experience that using the fresh water  from your tanks for heat exchange works, and I would think that an external/keel cooler system would also work just fine in a tank as long as you can keep sufficient water in the tank.

About how much water, assuming about 80F water temp (summer time in the tropics), do you think is necessary to keep in the tank to keep the water temps from getting up to the point where it affects the heat exchange adversely?  With our old holding plate system running with the big Tecumseh compressor it took almost 90 gallons because of the large BTU heat exchange required for the 1.5 hr run.  So we only did this when hauled out.

With a Danfoss based evaporator plate system you might need even less fresh water in the tank than with your hybrid system due to less BTU exchange over a longer period of time.  With modern Danfoss compressors longer run times with less amp draw mean greater efficiency (less total amphrs per day) and much greater box temp stability.

Again, thanks for the info and hope all this helps someone installing a new system.

Dave
CSY 44 Walkthru #35, Soggy Paws
Soggy Paws the CSY has been SOLD
http://svsoggypaws.com/CSY/For_Sale.htm

Peter Roach

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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 05:03:09 PM »
As anyone who has walked inside a CSY on a hot summer day knows - fiberglass is a very good heat conductor.

If you keep any sort of water over a keel cooler in the tank it will probably work fine. The tanks on the WO are all against the hull of the boat. This along with water being present on both sides will give you a pretty good thermal transfer. I would imagine it would be hard to get the water tanks to be much different than the surrounding water.

My 2 cents.
I tried having a bad day once but I did not like it

Mike Zofchak

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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 10:37:59 AM »
Guys,

You are way ahead of me, I do not even have the old box removed and you start with all of this talk. My weak brain can only hold onto so much info at one timeā€¦.

I posted this on the interior section a while back. I was hoping for some input.

As always thanks for the invaluable information.



A few questions for you all that have rebuilt your ice boxes:

* What did you line it with?

* Where did you buy new lids or did you use the old ones?

* I really think I want to add a front opening (for refrigeration side only) along with the top openings. Any thought on where to purchase something like that?
Capt. Mike Zofchak
Land Locked S/V Buckeye Queen

Soggy Paws

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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 12:39:06 AM »
Mike,

Have a close look at Nigel Calder's 3rd edition of his Mechanical and Electrical Manual for far and away the best coverage of modern refrigeration systems and insulation options from an expert. It is well worth the $40 and will answer most of your questions.

A front opening for your refrig would be a great idea if it was a tall refrig like at home or on the Walk Thru.  I'm not sure it will make things much easier with the WO refrig configuration.  Have a look at a modern boat with a front and top loading refrig before you decide what to do.  

In any case Glacier Bay Refrigeration in Seattle sells boxes and doors.  Don't buy their vacuum panels unless you have really deep pockets and need to increase your box interior volume.  Google them for info.

Dave
CSY 44 Walkthru #35, Soggy Paws
Soggy Paws the CSY has been SOLD
http://svsoggypaws.com/CSY/For_Sale.htm

Mike Zofchak

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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 09:15:26 AM »
Dave,

Thanks for the input. I own and have read Nigel's books and like this site and you guys they are a wealth of information.

I have a pretty good plan on the construction of the box but still not sure about the door configuration. I have looked at some different door sites and about fell over looking at the prices!!! Oh well I guess I should start playing the lottery...

Thanks again,
Mike Z.
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Cory Young

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REFRIGERATION SUGGESTIONS NEEDED
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2014, 10:22:45 AM »
I know I'm new here but have a little input on this subject.

One thing I've noticed is, people always love the system they have no matter how outdated or unreliable because it justifies the money they have spent. People also seem to complicate their refrigeration systems, creating not only a huge source of energy consumption but something that will pin them down in a port waiting on parts. That being said,  I have had nothing but good experience with Engel.

Our current boat (CSY 37 Plan B) had the old box removed and it is almost a perfect fit for the Engel MT80 it now houses. This provides plenty of space for my needs with a family of 4, including our 14 year old teenager that eats everything! It draws around 3 amps peak and runs about 20 minutes out of the hour, averaging around 1 to 1.5 amps per hour. I have had Danfoss compressors and various other cooling systems and Engel is by far the best answer for us. I never hear anyone with an Engel say anything but good things about their performance. Engels are robust units with a very small failure rate, great customer service and low energy draw.

That being said they can not fulfill the needs of all cruisers and won't work for everyone. We will always have a home for Engel on our boat, it's just one less thing to worry about while cruising. Goodluck!

Peter Roach

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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2014, 10:32:12 AM »
Cory - you are right about refrigeration becoming more like religion than science. You will also notice that is true about anchors and engines. :-)
I tried having a bad day once but I did not like it