CSY Owners Forum

General Category => Underway => Topic started by: RHoodJr on March 12, 2010, 08:41:51 AM

Title: Windward performance
Post by: RHoodJr on March 12, 2010, 08:41:51 AM
This question is to gain a better understanding of the expected windward performance of the CSY 44 w/o.  During our last trip to the boat in the BVI we sailed from Tortola to Anegada.  Normally a 16 mile close reach in about 3.5 hours.  This day the winds, which had been going around the compass rose for weeks had again clocked around and were blowing right in our teeth.  There were significant 6 - 8 foot north long period swells running that were mixing with a smaller NE wind swell.  Now that you have that image in your mind, this is what we found our boat able to do.  Which leads me to believe we may need to make some changes.  :'(

Shoal draft
Standard mast

Rhumb Line 035
wind direction 030 - 040
Stbd. tack heading 330
port tack heading 090

If we pinched it a little harder we would loose 2kts and only gain 5 to 10 degrees less tacking angle.  With our tacking angles and sea state the gps showed we were only making 2kts towards our fix.

The boat does not have a staysail which is the root of the question.  Is this typical performance going to windward in these conditions or would a staysail given us a better tacking angle and power to go to windward?

We are still wrestling with the option of re-installing the staysail and if this is an indication of the windward performance without one, we need to move that up to the top of our list.

Thanks in advance for your input.
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Soggy Paws on March 16, 2010, 06:49:38 PM

We have a shoal draft, tall rig, new heavy cruising sails, two Profurl furlers, a clean bottom, properly tuned rig and staysail.  Our tacking angle in reasonable sea conditions with about 15 kts of wind is about 100 degrees.

I would definitely reinstall the staysail to help your windward speed and performance and before you lose your mast if anything on your headstay breaks.  The boats were designed to have the staysail in place to support the midsection of the mast.  We recently met a couple with a new Bavaria 46 who had just lost their mast in 15 knots of wind when a fitting below their furler broke.  They did not have their staysail rigged at the time.  A $60K mistake.

Title: Windward performance
Post by: RHoodJr on March 16, 2010, 08:14:47 PM
Thanks Dave, good feedback.  We need to work on that during our off (summer) season.  Boat goes back on the hard end of April.

Hope you and Sherry are having a great PAC SEA cruise!

Fair winds
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Warren Daniels on March 16, 2010, 09:30:28 PM
Dave or anyone else,
Where would one go to find out what the proper tune on our rigging should be?  Is a tensionometer required?
Inquiring minds want to know. :)
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Rhapsody on March 17, 2010, 01:11:15 AM
Dave or anyone else,
Where would one go to find out what the proper tune on our rigging should be?
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Harry L. Rezzemini on April 01, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
Richard - Yes, by all means, get that staysail back in place! 

Not only will the stay provide proper support for the mast, but that little sail makes a lot of power, in no small part by greatly improving the lift provided by your yankee jib.  I wouldn't leave home without one!

BTW, when things really get piping the staysail and a single reef in the main provides decent balance, but it really has to get blowing hard to need to do that ... 30kt plus.
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Soggy Paws on April 29, 2010, 02:50:10 AM

I agree that the staysail is a very important part of your sail inventory.  And you should have it set up so that you can use it both up and down wind.

During our recent passages from the Galapagos, via Easter Island and Pitcairn to French Polynesia the staysail was up the entire time except for a day or two when motoring in a flat calm.

Our normal sail configuration upwind and beam reaching was main, usually reefed, full staysail, and 120 pct jib, usually reefed.  All sails on the same side of the boat.  Down wind we used Tom's rig of reefed main vanged and prevented out leeward, jib on the fixed pole upwind and staysail sheeted tight down the middle of the boat.  In both cases we tried to get the main reefing right long before we needed to reduce sail and then just rolled the jib in and out as needed.  Sometimes the jib was reefed up to 90 pct.  But the staysail was always out 100 pct keeping us steady and moving. 

We usually had at least one reef in the main.  (We have a tall rig--the mast height was increased for the Bahamas/FL people).  Most of the time wind speeds varied from 15-25 kts.  We put the first reef in the main at 15 kts and the second at 20 kts.   

We always carry the RIB dinghy upside down on the cabin top while at sea.  If we had had the staysail on a clubfoot, the sheet and traveler would have interfered and we would have had no place to adequately stow the dinghy.  You need to both stow the dinghy on the cabin top and be able to fly the staysail, especially if you encounter a storm at sea.  Beaujolais had this problem during their recent downwind passage from the Galapagos to the Marquesas, so could not fly the staysail down wind to lessen the roll and help reduce the boat's tendency to round up.  Much better to fly the staysail loose footed with all rigging out of the way of the dinghy.

Title: Windward performance
Post by: Tiger Lilly on August 15, 2012, 01:38:47 PM

I have delivered two CSY shoal draft boats: one from Panama to Tampa Bay, and another from Long Island Sound to Jacksonville.  I have circumnavigated my deep draft CSY44 wo, and I can tell you there is quite a difference between the shoal and deep keel configurations when on the wind.  I don't have any data, just sea miles and years of sailing these boats.  If you want to go to windward there is no substitute for a keel...

The staysail is the MOST used sail on my boat.  Dave McCampbell is correct, without the inner forestay you could loose the spar in any kind of a blow - especially if the main is deeply reefed.  It is quite a safety issue, I have no idea why anyone would remove such an important part of the rig.

If you are going to do any distance downwind you need a whisker pole, and the ONLY safe way to rig a whisker pole for off shore work on a short handed boat is from a track on the front of the mast.  Deck mounted poles are dangerous in the extreme...

Hope this helps,
Tom Service
S/V Tiger Lilly
Mount Hartman Bay
Grenada, West Indies
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Ron Sheridan on July 15, 2013, 05:24:37 PM
Rich and others.
Walk Overs or Throughs are cutter rigged.  I own a Ketch, CSY Pilot House. so my comments should be softened... by your or others comments.

MOST-Tall rigs, built by CSY for the 44's had SHOAL drafts.  Dave and some others will go with what they chose, but I chose DEEP draft.

This...is a never ending discussion that...will never end, but anyone paying the big bucks and have desires to do "it in the best manner they can?" should pay attention...sit back and read more...  esp. if they do NOT get this issue.

So, add a taller rig? and minimalize your keel????  Well, that is nice for day sailing in Tampa Bay-what this was designed for...and the Bahama Charter Fleet owned by CSY  back then...and this is where these older boats came from.  (Charter boats)

You can take almost anything and make it 'anything' but, you cannot easily add KEEL or deminish Sail Area, without contantly REEFING-to reduce sail area.

Staysails?  yeah.  Good, I added one to my Ketch, Pilothouse built by CSY..  Why?  To add Options.  Upwind GOOD!  I've needed it "(0)" times.  "zero".  Used it a few times, but I guess in my years out there, I've found other options.

I reduce and take things gently..  (OK hammers, come on...   :)   )

Tensions?  I believe GUT tensions relayed to your brain is fine enough if you are really attuned to your rig but...if you want a meter, then buy one!

keels are NOT some stupid thing!  Why does this BS continue.?  Why?

Sure, you can take a floating raft across an ocean and get wherever it flows. but take a few minutes before you plunk down big bucks and ....well, just take a look at what those gents and ladies use to 'take a determined path' around anywhere...like around the world....

None.. chose little bitty draft.  They go for the biggest keel the boat model offered.
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Peter Roach on July 15, 2013, 07:05:36 PM
I found that the stay sail on the boom would hold on points of sail where the others would not hold. This was traveling down the intercoastal for about 2 weeks with the wind on our nose. We motor sailed most of the way. The stay sail gave us another knot to 1.5 knots. Also, you just put it up and forget it.
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Peter Rabbit on July 23, 2013, 03:30:00 PM
I have found the stay sail useful, not in Tampa Bay but in the Gulf and Ocean for both tight upwind and downwind when.  One such down wind was in 25kts, in the Gulf, using just the main and the stay sail.  Using just the main slowed the boat and made for a very comfortable ride.  The stay sail was sheeted tight on the center line.  This acted like a break when the boat would try to roll up in a gust.  The wind would hit that flat surface and push it back down.  I learnt this trick from Tom Service who told me how he did this very thing while going around the world.  The stay sail on Peter Rabbit is also the heaviest sail on the boat.  It is last down and we fly in it in anything.

Keel, we have the 6.5 and I believe it helps on most points of sail.  However, I have frds that have the shorter draft and go miles and miles in the Ocean without a issue.  So while deep draft owners believe it is better, shorter draft does not seem to be stopping anyone.
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Ron Sheridan on August 01, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Hello Paul,
You are correct. "Draft or lack of it will not stop anyone"  Being knowledgeable is more important I think  than having all that one could afford in a boat.  Knowledge, wisdom is essential. yes?  but, well, maybe.. if you're worn out, sick, overwhelmed... then, what the heck is wrong with a boat that is just Dang Good! ??   yeah, I'm just smiling because I know that you and many others here, feel the same... all of us really, are not loosing the fatherly instinct..
Loaded.. we had with our Full Keel,  a 6'11"  draft.  (yup, lot's of stuff aboard-and why I raised waterline thru hulls etc.)

I really did not get to play... in 'Ocean's'.... 

We spent our time in the tranquil Gulf of Mexico and Carribean Sea hoping and planing to do a circumnavigation, but.............and sadly.... did not make it into the Pacific.  A decade in calm waters...... yah?)  no. (BS!)

[Ok, truth.... Gulf of Mexico or wherever...... can put someone.. to the test...., so I'll move onward.]

I'm just really trying to be truthful, having spent a bunch trying to "follow" all info available and found that in my experience I could do 200 mile days, start at the back of the pack and get into the harbor 1st. etc. was a surprising bottom line.  !

Sails certainly matter-their age, size, condition..........usage? sure!  . But... Draft matters too.

Sails beyond a day sailing boat, should be able to handle winds up to 20 or even 25-30 without reefing............Gosh this scares folks!  I have kept full sail up to that range many times and wow... and also...nice!  (right rig, right draft, right sails, right ...Uh, auto pilot!  certainly.. The CSY can as designed, carry full sail up to 30 knots... and I have often....and felt safe.)   Of course, I scaled things back if I needed a break....but it was really enlightening to 'know'...I've been there and this boat is Ok, there.

Fuel consumption/engine power torque,-ratios-prop specs-  gonna get away for awhile?? then tankage, etc.. Lot's of things to be considered.. No one answer.

Paul. Nice to see you are out there still enjoying CSY life... passed by your boat a couple of times taking my dog down to the park in Ft. Desoto.
Stay well, keep a smile, ron
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Peter Rabbit on August 09, 2013, 11:04:03 AM
Hi Ron,

Interesting you also mention fuel consumption/engine power torque,-ratios-prop specs.  We are in the process of replacing the 4-154.  Won’t get into that much here as that belongs more in the engine section but lots to consider when replacing an engine with something other than what it came with.  All the things you mention are the key points to consider.

TAD has marinized a Cummings b3.3 a 65hp normal aspirated engine.  The specs are a bit different in that it is lower RPM, 2600 vs 3000.  Rick Flemming, as well as another CSY owner, has installed the same motor and he and I have spoken about underway performance and fuel burn. 

Needless to say but will anyway, we are NOT comparing apples to apples.  The 4-154 I am sure no longer produces its rated 62hp.  What is its max hp now?   It would be an uninformed guess but no doubt less. 

Rick reports 6.5kkts using the stock prop at 1600 to 1700 rpm.  The gear box is same brand and model just with a 2.57:1 which almost matches’ shaft revolutions to the 2.91:1. 

My calculations indicate at max 2600 rpm I will be losing 19rpm per min or about 1 ever 3 seconds.  This works out to about 1.8% loss.  They make a 2.50:1 in a new series with an 8 degree down angle which calculates out to about 10 rpm MORE but this will require making changes to the engine beds. 

I believe, maybe wrongly, that these differences are so small that it won’t be noticed particularly since I will be comparing to an engine that has many hours on it and is highly likely producing less power at a given % of throttle .  Yes my old 4-154 runs great, starts fast, but it is old and has not been rebuilt so apples to oranges.

Rick's reported fuel burn at the 1700 rpm range is less than 1 gal per hour.  This is approximately equal to running the old engine at 2000 rpm which for me burned about 1.1 gph.  So it appears that we can gain speed and burn less fuel.  Contribute that to newer tech engineering and engine eff.  Rick, while his engine was out had new tanks made but modified the shape by making the bottom a bit wider increasing his tank capacity.   I don’t remember how much but with this engine he has told me he going much longer than our stock setup will allow.

More as the install goes along.  Got to finish this last project so can make the final break away. 

Take care...
Title: Windward performance
Post by: Soggy Paws on August 25, 2013, 08:08:00 PM

I have to weigh in one more time on this.